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Winston-Salem's Tallest Buildings and Skyscrapers
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 Post subject: Greensboro Developments
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 12:43 pm 
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Roy Carroll says the market is right for a new hotel in downtown Greensboro. With the PAC looking more like a reality and overall revitalization progress he's ready to move forward with his plans as early as next Spring.

http://www.news-record.com/business/art ... f6878.html


Last edited by TwinCity on Mon Jan 06, 2014 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:25 am 
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Yes, and here's that resurrected hotel from a few years ago. GBOI is peeing all over himself over at U.P.

http://www.news-record.com/news/local_n ... f6878.html

However, read this report from that time, or at least the cover page and ask the question as to what economic conditions have dramatically improved to validate this?

http://www.scribd.com/doc/25506692/HVS-1-18-10


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:05 pm 
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Here's the real stinger:

Quote:

The 2009 HVS Hotel Valuation Index report issued in October 2009 lists Greensboro (ranked 63) near the bottom of 65 cities in the U.S. for projected changes in per-room value from 2006 to (Projected) 2013. Hotel values in Greensboro are projected by HVS to fall -47.7% between 2006 and 2013



. . . and this doesn't even factor in teenage riots.

:guns: :help:


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:08 pm 
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The Possum wrote:
Here's the real stinger:

Quote:

The 2009 HVS Hotel Valuation Index report issued in October 2009 lists Greensboro (ranked 63) near the bottom of 65 cities in the U.S. for projected changes in per-room value from 2006 to (Projected) 2013. Hotel values in Greensboro are projected by HVS to fall -47.7% between 2006 and 2013



. . . and this doesn't even factor in teenage riots.

:guns: :help:



:D


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:34 pm 
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Carroll is being reasonable with 100 rooms and a cost around $14 million. Also, the ballpark location is good. I think his will actually break ground and end discussion on the others. Construction costs are cheap and demand is likely only enough for 100 rooms or less. I've heard Greensboro's Marriott struggles though. I don't know if I would build a hotel there, knowing that. I also don't think he will see many over night stays from the new music venue. Most of the overnight stays will come from the baseball tournament.

http://www.bizjournals.com/triad/blog/2 ... three.html


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:24 am 
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Agreed, my money would be on Carroll. The number of rooms sound reasonable. He's trying to make his buddy Robbie (God, what 57 year old man goes by Robbie!!! :roll: ) Perkins look good with the talk of how that pac is going to put "heads on beds". It is beyond absurd to think there would be any sustainable business catering to that customer segment.

The Durham envy over there is unbelievable. It would be Hilarious if Durham turned around and built a Coliseum with the Blue Devils as the anchor tenant & then go after those shows that currently go to that High Point Road arena. GSO gets a few good shows, but when you compare the more popular acts that stop in RDU & CLT, the offerings even at the Coliseum are really sort of second rate when viewing the breadth of the schedule. (Disclaimer: Winston sucked at fully marketing/utilizing the LJVM, which is what really brought about the sale to Wake in the end. I remain hopeful that Wake will really try to maximize the entertainment value of owning such a facility by being more assertive with getting popular shows there more consistently.) To think that the traveling shows are going to pick GSO over the Triangle & Charlotte to any appreciable degree is delusional. People will not be flocking to GSO to see Broadway & other types of shows over those two larger cities, which have much larger populations of the affluent demographics that frequent such events. The financial assumptions they are making to cobble together the projected budget is really an exercise in financial malfeasance. $10 million of the dollars are coming from the projected selling of premium parking of something like $65.00 per space/event. That building will be an even bigger money drain than the Civil Rights Museum. But good luck to them :roll:


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:17 pm 
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This all goes back to Durham bragging about Greensboro residents vising DPAC and noticing DPAC has 252 more seats than the outdated War Memorial Auditorium. This new facility, taxpayers are building, isn't really adding anything new. It's replacing an older facility and it's an older facility they never could upgrade until DPAC's bragging.

One thing I wish Winston-Salem would've taken greater advantage of is UNCSA. The Stevens Center is downtown, but there were several missed opportunities to build other UNCSA facilities in downtown Winston-Salem. This would've created an impressive performance district for Winston-Salem's downtown that no other city in the state could match. If all of those facilities were downtown, it would've brought larger crowds and more money to UNCSA, while providing additional entertainment options for downtown. I really believe any new performance facilities should be built downtown and not demolish any more houses in Washington Park/Sunnyside. I wish the music hall, designed by CJMW, and the theatre, would've selected downtown Winston-Salem instead of an on campus site. CJMW did a great job on it and I like the sculpture too.

One idea I would like to see Winston-Salem look into is minor league hockey. Winston-Salem has talked about a downtown arena since the 1970s and even voted on a bond for one back then. I would like to see a small 5,000 seat arena, costing around $25 million, constructed near the ballpark or on the north end of downtown. This facility could attract a minor league hockey team to downtown and in a downtown setting, the hockey team would likely do as well as the Dash have done, since they moved downtown. I would also try to bring a Hurricanes affiliation to the team. The Hurricanes have said they would like to have their minor league teams in cities in their market. Their lowest level team (ECHL) is currently in Florida. Winston-Salem was recently ranked by Street and Smiths as the best minor league market in North Carolina and the 22nd best in the nation. It's a good time to look into this and it's a very affordable facility. It would cost a little more than the library and significantly less than the ballpark. It is also possible to sell naming rights for the facility to lower the price. Maybe create corporate sponsored areas throughout, to lower the price. I would try to lock-in a team to a long lease in a stable league.


Last edited by Fourth and Main on Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:57 pm 
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If only the houses demolished had been replaced with performance facilities . . . they were demolished for driveways or vacant lots.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 1:41 am 
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Isn't the Stevens Center a PAC anyway. I certainly favor an arena downtown especially since LJVM is solely WFU now, but I'm skeptical of a minor league hockey team given the (recent) history even if it's downtown. I love F&M's posts; they are so infectiously enthusiastic - thanks.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 10:28 pm 
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Fourth and Main wrote:
One thing I wish Winston-Salem would've taken greater advantage of is UNCSA. The Stevens Center is downtown, but there were several missed opportunities to build other UNCSA facilities in downtown Winston-Salem. This would've created an impressive performance district for Winston-Salem's downtown that no other city in the state could match. If all of those facilities were downtown, it would've brought larger crowds and more money to UNCSA, while providing additional entertainment options for downtown. I really believe any new performance facilities should be built downtown and not demolish any more houses in Washington Park/Sunnyside.


Don't despair! UNCSA has plans for a larger auditorium facility (or PAC), larger than Stevens Center. This is in UNCSA's long-range master plan (i.e.: it's on their wish list.) There is no money allocated for it at present, and the four projects now under construction on the campus are the only projects that are budgeted (and, with our current General Assembly, there's no bloody chance of anything new being budgeted any time soon.)

Due to the hullabaloo that arose over the construction of the scenery warehouse at South Main Street and Acadia (in the Washington Park neighborhood), UNCSA officials have been holding regular meetings with Washington Park Neighborhood Association officers and members to keep them (us) apprised of their long-range plans. That's where news of this hoped-for performing arts center (and their master plan) came to light (at least for me.)

The facility is currently planned as an on-campus facility. Big mistake. This clearly should be downtown in what the city envisions as a "theatre district." And there is a perfect spot for it -- on Spruce Street across from the old YMCA (now condos), in what is now a surface parking lot for those condos and the Hanesbrand Theatre. That would put three major theaters within easy walking distance of each other -- Hanesbrand, Stevens Center and the new facility. Then this area would truly deserve to be known as the theatre district.

This surface parking lot is one of the proposed sites for the new library, and that is why I'm opposed to using this site for that purpose; I want it to be saved for a future theater.

P.S.: Shouldn't this discussion have a thread of its own? It seems misplaced here in "Other Cities."


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:23 pm 
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I don't think a 3,000+ seat performing arts center can attract enough people in the Sunnyside neighborhood to fill the venue. If they want to build something like that, they need to build it downtown. When I visited campus to see performances, it was usually just me and maybe five other people at the most (guessing they are all students?). If all of the students on campus bought tickets, they could maybe fill a third of the facility? And with no foot traffic walking past it and no visibility, outside campus, it's a waste to build it there. It really belongs downtown, near thousands of residents, visitors, convention/trade show attendees, and the cluster of performing arts in the Theatre District, where it can become an entertainment anchor and also host other events when UNCSA isn't using it.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 12:40 am 
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Quote:
Don't despair! UNCSA has plans for a larger auditorium facility (or PAC), larger than Stevens Center.
. This is great news, but would this mean the Stevens Center and another of approximately the same size.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:44 pm 
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OK, I've been a bad boy. 8) I have re-posted some not so complementary comments from a GSO blogger regarding the GPAC on U.P. It is sure to rile up the G-Dweeb. I ask for the forum's forgiveness and will really, really try not to do it again. :dont:


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 11:19 am 
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Downtown GSO may be on the brink of a building boom as well. The Wyndham will break ground in March along with Carroll's hotel, and the PAC. Soon after could be the downtown university building.

Interesting that the only reason why Wyndham chose GSO was because of them hosting the golf tournament.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:01 pm 
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It will be one or the other. Their downtown can't support both of those hotels. If the opening of the PAC generates any overnight stays, it should be enough to finally help their Marriott. However, it is worth noting that Greensboro uses local developers who often built their companies on strip malls, suburban office parks, and cul-de-sacs. They see city leaders talking about downtown and they want a piece of it. National developers say it's not feasible, but they step-in and say it is; only to find their residential developments are mostly empty, their rents have to be so low they just barely cover the loans, and now we will see their hotels mostly empty. Didn't HVS (the respected authority) say a hotel isn't feasible in downtown Greensboro? And they want to build two? Maybe Carroll can make his hotel break even, using new construction at affordable rates, the few tournaments at the ballpark and the few overnight stays a "local" PAC generates, but the Wyndham should look elsewhere, like maybe a location closer to the Furniture Market area? Maybe the idea is to pressure the Marriott out and renovate that building into... uh? Are those 98 Center Pointe condos Carroll built filled yet? Renovate it into something other than a hotel. They could force Marriott out and buy the old Marriott to convert into their university center?

As far as a building boom in Greensboro, they have high office vacancy (among the highest in the southeast), no demand for hotel rooms, and Greensboro is on the top five list of lowest apartment rent prices in the nation. Low rent = not profitable to build apartments. I don't expect to see a boom there. What they can do is spend local and state tax dollars on a PAC and a state university complex.


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